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  • Jun. 24th, 2009 at 11:23 AM
sloth: penny from big bang theory laying the verbal smackdown (penny will tell you why you are wrong so)
Summed up here

My own thoughts, casual as they may be: 

1) flashbacks to RaceFail what with all the survivor-blaming and "privilege? what privilege?" discussion

2) I really, really like the idea one commenter had, of including a "Warnings: to the best of my knowledge there are no warnings needed for this fic" to fics so that any reader who is wary can be assured she/he isn't taking a chance in reading an unmarked fic. I think I'm going to start doing that. 

3) Given that a lot of the discussion seems to hinge not just on warnings in general but also warnings for misogyny related crimes, such as rape, consent issues, assault, and abuse in its myriad forms (with the derailing tactics of attempting to move away from dubcon warnings to "do I need to warn for allergies now, too?"), there is something that just boggles me. These works of (fan)fiction, depicting - I'm assuming sympathetically, empathetically - events of graphic violence are works where the author tends to occupy, or see through the perspective of, the one assaulted. The second most common viewpoint is that of the rescuer-figure who has come to help the survivor of assault. In both fictive instances, the author tends to (not always, not in every case, but for the majority in my sampling of this genre) present an empathetic portrayal. The level of irony is astounding when this empathy given to fictional characters in fictional settings is not extended to real survivors of assault, real supporters of those who have survived assault, in the real setting that is the social networks of our journaling sites. If a dubcon fic made you cry and ache for the characters, why can't you cry and ache for fellow members of our community? Why is it permissible to allow fictive voices be heard, but silence the real ones?

4) There is no 4. The 4 is a lie. 

5) I do have a trigger. It's not related to any consent or assault issues. It is a somewhat common trope in fanfic, but I navigate around it just fine, and heed warnings when authors are considerate and compassionate enough to post them. I was recently triggered by a non-fanfic source and spent a few days randomly breaking into tears and trying desperately to regain my equilibrium. It's hard. It hurts. I don't know anyone with enough malice to deliberately want to hurt me in that way - but it didn't stop me from being hurt. It didn't stop me from flashing back and contemplating self-harm. Triggers are different from squicks, which you can walk away from. Triggers are embedded in you, and the impact they have is enormously damaging.

6) Regarding the notion of warnings = spoilers, why not post warnings separately under a cut with the addendum that if the reader has triggers, they may want to check out the warnings; if the reader has no triggers and would like to avoid spoilers, to ignore the warnings; if the reader has no triggers but likes spoilers, read the warnings; etc. It's a little extra work, but it seems like a middle ground between avoiding harm to readers and preserving authorial control over spoilers, etc. 


asimaiyat: Kirk loves Spock, and that's a fact. (kirk loves spock)
[personal profile] asimaiyat wrote:
Jun. 25th, 2009 03:30 am (UTC)
I pretty much agree with everything here -- down to the fact that I also have a trigger which is not related to consent issues or anything. It's listed in my profile so people will hopefully not recc fics to me that include it, because yeah, crying.

My general tactic (not that I write a lot of dub/noncon, I'm actually pretty fluffy) is to include everything that might be a trigger under "rating," so that way if it's pretty much unobjectionable I can just put something like "G, not even swearing" or something like that.

Extra bonus point: I hate when people use warnings as an advertisement. Like, I saw one that said: "warning: shower blowjobs!" As much as I am not one to complain about shower blowjobs, maybe we should put that in the summary and something a little less goofy in the warnings?
sloth: real bird perched on a no birds allowed sign ((ex)bird)
[personal profile] sloth wrote:
Jun. 25th, 2009 05:26 am (UTC)
I'm a teensy bit guilty of using warnings as jokes on fic that are written to be crack. :( I'm going to be more vigilant about it now, though; it's one of those things I didn't notice I was doing cavalierly before, something I was blinded to once but will work to not be again. I saw also, on thingswithwings' post on warnings, the elegant option of providing blackout/whiteout warnings so that the reader can choose to be 'spoiled', etc.

I do write some hard core stuff, and try to warn appropriately. I think the biggest change to my warning tactics is going to be that I'm going to warn for when the story has nothing that I consider triggering in it, for added reassurance on the part of the reader. It's something I never considered, but something I also consider very vital in the creation of a compassionate space.

I remember reading your profile when I first subscribed to you, and making a mental note re. your trigger. I tend not to mention mine because it doesn't always hit, and it makes me feel like I have to explain it, which I prefer not to do. I think part of what is so infuriating to me about this warnings debate is that one person did post, in graphic and horrifying detail, the creation of her trigger through repeated assault - and then one of her detractors insinuated repeatedly that she was lying about this assault and years-long abuse in order to claim 'victim privilege', and when not insinuating this, had the temerity to baldly state that the OP's insistence on warnings was akin to the assault she endured for her taking away of the author's free will. It was one of the most profoundly hurtful things I've ever seen one person say to another.

Sometimes fandom makes me flail; but at least it always has me thinking.

(Also, icon win. Did you know that Kirk and Spock originated the term slash? Or at least their fans did. We owe so much to them.)
asimaiyat: If you're in trouble, and no one else can help, and you can find them, maybe you can hire Leverage! (w/ whole team) (Leverage A-Team)
[personal profile] asimaiyat wrote:
Jun. 25th, 2009 05:34 am (UTC)
I think crack has some leeway, since it's unlikely to portray any serious subject matter in a way that reflects reality -- like, House going through withdrawal on House MD triggered the hell out of me, but a crackfic where Spock has to go through Chocoholics Anonymous would probably just make me *facepalmlol* like, um, most crackfics do.

Yeah, I followed a bunch of links from your link after responding, and headdesked repeatedly (or would have if I didn't have a lapfull of dog). When is it ever okay to question somebody's recounting of their traumatic experience?! Srsly, I wish rape/sexual abuse were uncommon enough that a story like that could be dismissed as far-fetched, but um, not even close. :(

(and yeah! I love that my new fandom is a lot of my friends' oldest fandom. Adorable story: one of my friends and his childhood bff dressed as Kirk and Spock for Halloween when they were 5.)
sloth: Spock weeps. (illogic = pain)
[personal profile] sloth wrote:
Jun. 25th, 2009 05:47 am (UTC)
one of my friends and his childhood bff dressed as Kirk and Spock for Halloween when they were 5

Excuse me while I die of the cute! ...did they grow up gay for each other in a case of life imitates art?

A whole bunch of derailing went on with warnings for misogyny related crimes (rape, consent issues, so on) being translated into "you'll want me to warn for EVERYTHING so I should just warn for NOTHING" which, yeah, not the same thing. Commenters have rightfully pointed out the percentages of assault survivors being a substantial portion of women everywhere, with who knows how many instances of repeated instances of assault. Even so, I think that if even one person is spared being triggered by appropriate warnings, then listing those warnings is vital. Being able to live without triggers is an incredible privilege, and one I wouldn't want to take away from anyone because I know how much triggers really suck. I just wish more people could understand that, and the impact triggers have. It makes me break out my shiny new Spock icon.
asimaiyat: If you're in trouble, and no one else can help, and you can find them, maybe you can hire Leverage! (w/ whole team) (Default)
[personal profile] asimaiyat wrote:
Jun. 25th, 2009 05:59 am (UTC)
I don't think so, but the one I'm friends with did grow up bi... I'm trying to convince him to be Mirror Universe!Spock this Halloween, since he said regular Spock wasn't goth enough. :p

And yeah, I think you, me and headdesk!Spock are on the same page. I started to do a count of the percentage of people close to me who've been victims of some kind of sexual abuse or assault... and then I stopped because it's too depressing. The only way to not be aware of how widespread it is is to have your hands over your ears and be going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU." *sigh*
sloth: Pinocchio cuts off the extra length to his nose (I know not of what lies you speak of)
[personal profile] sloth wrote:
Jun. 25th, 2009 06:11 am (UTC)
The only way to not be aware of how widespread it is is to have your hands over your ears and be going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU."

Yes, this, exactly. Because this is already the default behaviour of society, and I always somehow, foolishly, think that it's going to get better, that maybe this community won't be as full of fail, and then it is.

There were a few posts going around a while ago about how North American culture (possibly global culture) is rape culture: how it enables and excuses rape and makes the process of redress for rape one incredibly dehumanizing for the survivor. I really think it's all about locating culpability. In our culture, what constitutes rape is a lack of "no", which isn't the same thing as a lack of consent; when, truthfully, rape is a lack of "yes". And that's being enacted in this warnings debate, too, that allocation of blame for harm - that blame being constantly deferred. I didn't hurt you, it's your own fault for being hurt. Like in rape court cases, the burden of proof is on the survivor - she (or in some cases, he; in other cases, zhe) has to prove lack of consent rather than the accused having to prove presence of consent; in the warning debate, those who have been triggered have to prove their trigger, how they have experienced pain and damage at the lack of warnings.

I'm sick of being called a liar by society at large solely based on my gender, but I've been at least accustomed to it, indoctrinated into it, no longer shocked by it. Parts of fandom shocked me here.